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    <title>Pros Apologian</title>
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 <title><![CDATA[OK, I Must Agree:  Best Video Ever.  Academy Award Time for David and Nabeel]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4157</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>James White</i></p>I think I can now retire from Islamic apologetics.  What is there left for me to do?  After this Oscar-winning performance, I need to cancel all my future ABN appearances out of sheer embarrassment.  Did David study under Olivier?  At the feet of Shakespeare?  The style, the grace...sheer genius.<br />
<br />
Of course, the point of the video is two-fold; one to introduce issues relating to the constant claim of most Muslims that the Qur'an has basically been photocopied for 1400 years (it hasn't), and the second to say something I have wanted to address but haven't had time: the International "Burn a Qur'an Day" is stupid.  Dumb.  Ridiculous.  Started by folks who have never even read it, as far as I can tell.  Far, far better than Burn a Qur'an Day would be Read a Qur'an Day: but read it knowledgeably and with insight, learning from the experience how to better proclaim a life-changing gospel to a billion people.  There's an idea!  Don't burn it, learn it, and then use it, to glorify Christ!  Yeah, that idea will go far.  <br />
<br />
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 <category>Islam</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4157</comments>
 <pubDate>Wed, 1 Sep 2010 21:51:22 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4157</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[A Christian Response to the "The New Science of Morality" - Part I]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4156</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Jamin Hubner</i></p><a href="http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge325.html"><em>Edge 325</em> (August 31st, 2010)</a> essentially brought to the table a more sophisticated version of the relativistic view of morality promoted by Silverman at the debate this past Monday. The well-known atheist Sam Harris recently attempted to capture "the New Science of Morality."<br />
<blockquote>We can look at the world, witnessing all of the diverse behaviors,  rules, cultural artifacts, and morally salient emotions like empathy and  disgust, and we can study how these things play out in human  communities, both in our time and throughout history.  We can examine  all these phenomena in as nonjudgmental a way as possible and seek to  understand them.  We can understand them in evolutionary terms, and we  can understand them in psychological and neurobiological terms, as they  arise in the present.  And we can call the resulting data and the entire  effort a "science of morality". This would be a purely descriptive  science of the sort that I hear Jonathan Haidt advocating. (Harris)</blockquote><br />
Of course, who determines what is "nonjudgmental"? Isn't there already a bit of bias in the fact that only three disciplines of knowledge and science (the word, remember, means "to know") are supposed to be our foundation for a theory of morality? Is the science of theology automatically excluded because it doesn't meet up to empirical standards?<blockquote>For most scientists, this project seems to exhaust  all that legitimate points of contact between science and morality —  that is, between science and judgments of good and evil and right and  wrong.  But I think there are two other projects that we could concern  ourselves with, which are arguably more important.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>The second project would be to actually get clearer  about what we mean, and s hould mean, by the term "morality,"  Understanding how it relates to human well-being altogether, and to  actually use this new discipline to think more intelligently about how  to maximize human well-being. Of course, philosophers may think that  this begs some of the important questions, and I'll get back to that.   But I think this is a distinct project, and it's not purely descriptive.   It's a normative project.  The question is, how can we think about  moral truth in the context of science?</blockquote><br />
Why maximize "human well-being"? How is that defined? Are we not to strive for a more evolved species regardless of how "well" we think it does to ourselves? After all, the whole point of sterilization and extermination of human lives in Germany during WWII was the "maximize human-well being." So, indeed, there is a touch of question-begging. The real question is: how can we meaningfully think about moral truths outside of an objective standard of morality?<br />
<blockquote>The third project is a project of persuasion: How can  we persuade all of the people who are committed to silly and harmful  things in the name of  "morality" to change their commitments, to have  different goals in life, and to lead better lives? I think that this  third project is actually the most important project facing humanity at  this point in time. It subsumes everything else we could care about —  from arresting climate change, to stopping nuclear proliferation, to  curing cancer, to saving the whales. Any effort that requires that we  collectively get our priorities straight and marshal massive commitments  of time and resources would fall within the scope of this project. To  build a viable global civilization we must begin to converge on the same  economic, political, and environmental goals.</blockquote><br />
This is a large project, indeed. It was the project assumed by the atheist in several portions of the recent White vs. Silverman debate. Silverman said "the destruction of the family is evil [for me]" while asserting that the holocaust was right for Germany. He came to a debate arguing for positively for the question "Is the New Testament evil?" when after being examined could only say that no one can understand the New Testament in its original context. If truth about morality is relative, then truth about morality has no basis for persuasion beyond "we think this is nice."<br />
<br />
Christianity, however, offers absolute claims about what is right and wrong. God's law is presented as fact, revealed as reality, and knowable to all - for God's law is written in the hearts of men, men who are made in God's image and likeness. That's why Christians have genuine persuasive power ("this is wrong because the Creator who owns everything says so") and atheists ("I prefer" or "groups of people prefer") do not. The most important project facing humanity at this time isn't saving whales and cooling our planet, it's proclaiming the truth of everything vital contained in His Word. Man is sinful, God is holy. Moreover, let us not forget that Hitler and Stalin were convinced they "got their priorities straight," and if morality is subject to change according to time and culture, then there is no basis to think the New Science of Morality will turn in a less horrific direction sooner or later.<br />
<blockquote>Obviously the project of moral persuasion is very  difficult — but it strikes me as especially difficult if you can't  figure out in what sense anyone could ever be right and wrong about  questions of morality or about questions of human values.  Understanding  right and wrong in universal terms is Project Two, and that's what I'm  focused on.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>There are impediments to thinking about Project Two:  the main one being that most right-thinking, well-educated, and  well-intentioned people — certainly most scientists and public  intellectuals, and I would guess, most journalists — have been convinced  that something in the last 200 years of intellectual progress has made  it impossible to actually speak about "moral truth."  Not because human  experience is so difficult to study or the brain too complex, but  because there is thought to be no intellectual basis from which to say  that anyone is ever right or wrong about questions of good and evil.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>My aim is to undermine this assumption, which is now  the received opinion in science and philosophy. I think it is based on  several fallacies and double standards and, frankly, on some bad  philosophy.  The first thing I should point out is that, apart from  being untrue, this view has consequences.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>In 1947, when the United Nations was attempting to  formulate a universal declaration of human rights, the American  Anthropological Association stepped forward and said, it can't be done.   This would be to merely foist one provincial notion of human rights on  the rest of humanity. Any notion of human rights is the product of  culture, and declaring a universal conception of human rights is an  intellectually illegitimate thing to do. This was the best our social  sciences could do with the crematory of Auschwitz still smoking.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>But, of course, it has long been obvious that we need  to converge, as a global civilization, in our beliefs about how we  should treat one another. For this, we need some universal conception of  right and wrong.  So in addition to just not being true, I think  skepticism about moral truth actually has consequences that we really  should worry about.</blockquote><br />
Atheist Sam Harris has nailed it. "We need some universal conception of right and wrong." Amen. "skepticism about moral truth actually has consequences that we really should worry about." Amen! And he goes on...<br />
<blockquote>Definitions matter. And in science we are always in  the business of framing conversations and making definitions.  There is  nothing about this process that condemns us to epistemological  relativism or that nullifies truth claims.  We define "physics" as,  loosely speaking, our best effort to understand the behavior of matter  and energy in the universe.  The discipline is defined with respect to  the goal of understanding how matter behaves.</blockquote><br />
<blockquote>Of course, anyone is free to define "physics" in some  other way.  A Creationist physicist could come into the room and say,  "Well, that's not my definition of physics.  My physics is designed to  match the Book of Genesis."  But we are free to respond to such a person  by saying, "You know, you really don't belong at this conference.   That's not 'physics' as we are interested in it.  You're using the word  differently. You're not playing our language game."  Such a gesture of  exclusion is both legitimate and necessary. The fact that the discourse  of physics is not sufficient to silence such a person, the fact that he  cannot be brought into our conversation about physics, does not  undermine physics as a domain of objective truth.</blockquote><br />
Of course, Harris in no way demonstrates how physics according to <em>any </em>definition provides "objective truth," nor does he provide an objective basis from which we can objectively say what "we are interested in." Is that all that the New Science of Morality comes down to - <em>what I'm interested in</em>? I'd rather have the physicist at a conference who is at least transparent about his presuppositions and the source of his epistemological authority.<br />
<br />
More coming...]]></description>
 <category>Christian Worldview</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4156</comments>
 <pubDate>Wed, 1 Sep 2010 17:06:08 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4156</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[Apologetics Course Offered in the Twin Cities]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4155</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Alan Kurschner</i></p>If you live in the Twin Cities area, sign up for <i>Introduction to Apologetics</i> that will be taught by Justin John Daeley. It will begin October 7th, meeting on Thursdays for eight weeks, from 6:30-8:30 p.m. <a href="http://jesusbibleinstitute.org/#/locations/twin-cities-mn">Click here</a> for more information.<br />
<br />
Also, this fall, I am teaching <i>Biblical Interpretation</i>. And starting in January, I will be teaching <i>Basics of Biblical Greek</i> and <i>Intermediate Greek</i>. <a href="http://jesusbibleinstitute.us1.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=10c160d5bbbc81d9ae8150e90&amp;id=2a83c40002">Click here</a> to be alerted to their announcements. ]]></description>
 <category>General Apologetics</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4155</comments>
 <pubDate>Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:10:27 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4155</guid>

</item><item>
 <title><![CDATA[No Time to Slow Down!]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4154</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>James White</i></p>Back to Phoenix (I hope whoever rifled one of my checked bags at JFK and stole one of my Flip Video cameras, with half of the footage of the Silverman debate last night, enjoys watching the debate on their stolen camera---and no, I can't see that they took anything else, but, having been the victim of theft in the past, I realize it sometimes takes a while to realize other items are missing.  My hope is whoever it was had to keep it small which is why they did not take other things in the bag).  You know you are traveling too much when you do not even bother putting your luggage away upon unpacking it.  I head out to Santa Fe for a double-header with Robert Sungenis a week from Thursday evening (the debates are on Friday).  I appreciate Jamin Hubner's comments on last night's debate.  It was---educational!  Mr. Silverman wishes to take me up on my invitation to debate the origins of Christianity (he holds to the Osiris, Dionysius, "all borrowed from the pagans" theory that is so easily demonstrated to be false).  But first I need to send him my debate with Dan Barker on a similar topic.  Be that as it may, the encounter was enlightening, and I am glad Jonathann Weingarten, who video taped both debates, has a good recording of it.  The audio should be outstanding on last night's debate, since he was able to plug directly into the sound system.  I note that the live streaming quality was outstanding as well, due to my finding a setting to greatly enhance the volume.  The location was perfect (easy to get to, the room is perfect for debate).  All in all a great evening.  Many thanks to Chris Arnzen, Dan Buttafuoco, Jonathan, Brian, and everyone else, for making the weekend possible.<br />
<br />
I barely have 48 hours from the time I get home from the Sungenis debates before I will be teaming up with Michael Brown to debate Sir Anthony Buzzard and Dr. Good on the subject of Trinitarianism vs. Unitarianism.  That should be quite the evening (Tuesday the 14th).  I then have about ten days before doing a Skype debate on ABN, hopefully with Abdullah Kunde (the current name given to me as my Islamic opponent that evening).  So as you can see, I don't have a moment's rest for the foreseeable future!  Lots and lots of study and preparation, on a very, very wide range of topics (which makes it all the more challenging).  I do get about three weeks "off" without a debate before the purgatory debate with Sungenis in Oregon, but then I only have a matter of days before heading to Lima, Peru!  I've scheduled a return to both St. Louis and Detroit in early December, doing the Jesus or Muhammad Marathon again, live, on ABN.  Don't forget the Polemics class in January, and please be praying about joining with us to get me to London in February.  I have a complete breakdown scheduled for March!  <br />
<br />
Now I think I will go look for a more secure roller bag with big TSA compliant locks...]]></description>
 <category>Personal</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4154</comments>
 <pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:20:57 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4154</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[White Lays Smack-Down on Silverman]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4153</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Jamin Hubner</i></p>Don't tell Dr. White this, but I totally forgot that the<em> <a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4059">Is the New Testament Evil?</a></em><a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4059"> </a> debate was going on <em>tonight</em>. (It's amazing how fast the summer evolves into fall! Lame excuse, I know.) But by God's grace I had the time and happened to be online to listen to it live when I popped my head into channel a couple hours ago. I'm glad that I did.<br />
<br />
I write this just as the Q &amp; A is beginning, and I truly believe this is one of (if not) the most useful Christian vs. atheist debate ever on record - even amongst presuppositional Christian vs. atheist debates (and I've listened to my share of atheist debates, I assure you). Why so?<br />
<br />
Firstly, because of the number of issues and common fallacies regarding Christianity that were brought up. Silverman set himself up for about every refutation imaginable whether regarding the dignity of man (image of God vs. animal), objective morality and cultural relativism (why one is "right" and another is not; holocaust, etc.), sinners and saints (why are some saved and others not: God's sovereign grace), the origin of Scripture (it "evolved from Egyptian texts"?), the self-attesting nature of Scripture (the epistemological nature of an ultimate authority), original sin and human perfection/corruption, the problem of evil in relation to foreknowledge and God's decree, "babies in hell," hermeneutics, the nature of the family, etc.<br />
<br />
And (secondly) each of these topics were masterfully addressed by James White. Indeed, what really gives the debate a mark of excellence was the apologist representing orthodox Christianity. As I listened to each portion, I couldn't think of more accurate, precise, and God-honoring responses than those of Dr. White. Praise God that He is effectively and powerfully working in apologetics ministries in the 21st century!<br />
<br />
There's much to be said, but here are a few specific summaries of the atheist break-down. Silverman:<br />
<br />
1. really got hung up on the God's fore-ordination and predestination topic (took up most of his first and second cross exam period), and it accomplished very little for this position (remember the title of this debate!)<br />
<br />
2. shot himself in the foot with regard to hermeneutics in the slavery-ethics debate (he denied that Paul can be understood in its original context, but yet, said that Cicero <em>can </em>be understood), which took up most of White's first cross-exam period...<br />
<br />
3. and Silverman also shot himself in the foot with admitting several times "there is no objective morality. Truth is relative...to time and place," since this eliminates all meaningful attempts to define "evil" in the debate question. Amazingly, Silverman continually told the audience to "live your life well" and that they are "good people," all while admitting that "well" and "good" can't even be objectively defined! And again, Silverman said "it's evil to destroy families" while at the same time admitting that, for Germany, the holocaust was "right." It was an ethical, epistemological mess.<br />
<br />
All in all, the debate went well and I encourage everyone to download the recording when it comes out on Aomin.org; it was made very clear that it is silly, absurd, beyond rationality, for the creature to deny the goodness of God and the goodness of his Scriptures.]]></description>
 <category>Christian Worldview</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4153</comments>
 <pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:09:27 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4153</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[Islam 101]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4152</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Jeff Downs</i></p>Greenville Seminary is hosting a class on Islam the week of September 6-10.  The instructor is <a href="http://www.gpts.edu/faculty/anees_zaka.php">Anees Zaka</a> is founder and senior missionary of Church Without Wall, based in Philadelphia, PA.  He is authored numerous books including <a href="http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/product_id/3691/nm/Truth+about+Islam%3A+The+Noble+Qur%27an%27s+Teachings+in+Light+of+the+Holy+Bible/?utm_source=jdowns&utm_medium=jdowns">this one</a>, reviewed <a href="http://www.opc.org/review.html?review_id=75">here</a> and <a href="http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/product_id/184/nm/Muslims+and+Christians+at+the+Table%3A+Promoting+Biblical+Understanding.../?utm_source=jdowns&utm_medium=jdowns">this book</a> both published by P&R.  You can listen to Zaka preach on "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name by <a href="http://ccpc-pca.com/audio/sermons/2010/2010-05-09-all_hail_the_power_of_jesus_name.mp3">clicking here</a>.<br />
<br />
I received an Email regarding the class stating "This class is available for audit and Dr. Zaka's church has graciously offered to cover the audit fees for members of the community who would like to attend."  So, if anyone is interested in taking the course, seating and scholarships is limited.  If interested, <a href="mailto:registrar@gpts.edu">contact</a> the registrar at GPTS.<br />
<br />
This Islam class is now on a regular rotation (it is a required M.Div course) in our curriculum; I'm pushing to have Dr. White teach this class in the future. :)]]></description>
 <category>Islam</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4152</comments>
 <pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:48:22 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4152</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[Monday Miscellaneous--From New York]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4151</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>James White</i></p>First, please pray for the debate this evening on Long Island.  I have found a setting on the little streaming PC that should make the audio much clearer and louder for those who will wish to listen live on the regular DL link.  I should have it fired up and running by 7pm EDT (unless I have to run solely on batteries, at which time I will hold off till closer to 7:30pm).  <br />
<br />
<img src="http://www.farmboymusic.com/farmboy/album6.jpg" align="right" title="" border="2">Next, our good friend Clyde Bauman, the genius behind Mylo Hatzenbuhler, has produced a wonderful new album that I've been enjoying for a couple of weeks now, <i>Prairie Memories</i>.  I hope to have Clyde on the DL in the near future to talk about it.  You can check out his album, and hear clips, <a href="http://www.farmboymusic.com/">here</a>.  Be careful though, I've been humming "Lord of the Rolling Hills" ever since I first heard it!<br />
<br />
Finally, Carla Rolfe has updated the AOMin gear store, and you can find her great designs <a href="http://www.zazzle.com/teamapologian">here</a>.  I especially like the Theology Matters design.  That's a conversation starter!  I think her next design might be, "Don't Be Quotin' No Pseudo Augustine to Me!" or maybe, "Thomas, Thomas, Check Your Sources Thomas!"]]></description>
 <category>Misc</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4151</comments>
 <pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:03:01 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4151</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[The White-Ferrara Marian Debate - Some Follow-Up]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4150</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Tur8infan</i></p>On Saturday, August 28, 2010, Dr. James White debated Mr. Christopher Ferrara on the topic of Mary's alleged sinlessness and immaculate conception.  While the debate audio/video are not (to my knowledge) yet available for purchase, here are a few points that I'd like to address.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-size:130%;">1) Does </span><span style="font-style: italic;font-size:130%;" >Ineffabilis Deus</span><span style="font-size:130%;"> lie about the patristic testimony?</span><br />
<br />
During the debate, Dr. White brought up the fact that <span style="font-style: italic;">Ineffabilis Deus</span> lies in claiming that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is something that was passed down from ancient times.  Mr. Ferrara alleged that the doctrines that were passed down were simply doctrines that form some kind of alleged basis for the doctrine, such as the view of Mary as "the new Eve."<br />
<br />
However, <span style="font-style: italic;">Ineffabilis Deus</span> itself states: <blockquote>And indeed, illustrious documents of venerable antiquity, of both the Eastern and the Western Church, very forcibly testify <u><b>that this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin</b></u>, which was daily more and more splendidly explained, stated and confirmed by the highest authority, teaching, zeal, knowledge, and wisdom of the Church, and which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the Catholic world in a marvelous manner -- <u><b>this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine</b></u>.</blockquote>(<span style="font-style: italic;"><a href="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm">Ineffabilis Deus</a></span>)(emphasis added)<br />
<br />
From this, it can be seen that the claim "this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine" is in direct reference not to the "new Eve" idea or any other pre-requisite doctrine or interpretation, but specifically in reference to "this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin."<br />
<br />
As Dr. White demonstrated during the debate, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception did not always exist, was not a doctrine that was received from the eary patristic period, and is not rightly to be considered a revealed doctrine (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/08/thomas-aquinas-and-fathers-of-church-on.html">just as it was not considered a revealed doctrine in Aquinas' time</a>)<br />
<br />
<span style="font-size:130%;">2) Thomas Aquinas' (and Christopher Ferrara's) Reliance on Pseudo-Augustine</span><br />
<br />
During the debate, Christopher Ferrara raised as allegedly a work by Augustine, the work referenced by Thomas Aquinas in the following sentence: "But as Augustine, in his tractate on the Assumption of the Virgin, argues with reason, since her body was assumed into heaven, and yet Scripture does not relate this; so it may be reasonably argued that she was sanctified in the womb." (<span style="font-style: italic;">Summa Theologica</span>, 3rd Part, <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm">Question 27, Article 1</a>)<br />
<br />
The Cambridge University Press 2006 edition (essentially a reprint of the edition released by the English Dominicans in the 1960's and 1970's) provides the following footnote for that sentence: "<span style="font-style: italic;">Tract on the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin</span>, in the Preface: PL 40, 1141."<br />
<br />
The reference PL 40, 1141 is a reference to column 1141 of volume 40 of Migne's Latin Patrology (PL).  In Migne's PL, one finds that Migne has designated this work as "incerti auctoris," meaning that the authorship is uncertain (<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=xvMQAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PT545#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false">link to evidence</a>).<br />
<br />
Allan Fitzgerald O.S.A., editor of <span style="font-style: italic;">Augustine through the Ages: An Encyclopedia</span>, does not include the work in his list of Augustine's works, and the work is usually cited as "Pseudo-Augustine" in works that cite it.<br />
<br />
For example, internationally renowned Mariologist (and Marianist priest) Luigi Gambero writes: <blockquote>The text in question is one mistakenly attributed to St. Augustine, published in PL 40, 1140-48.  It has been studied by G. Quandrio, <span style="font-style: italic;">Il trattato "De Assumptione B. M. B." dello Pseudo-Agostino e il suo influsso nella teologia assunzionistica latina</span>, Analecta Gregoriana 7 (Rome, 1951).</blockquote> - Luigi Gambero, <span style="font-style: italic;">Mary in the Middle Ages</span>, <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=rIC3zan1xcwC&amp;pg=PA78#v=onepage&amp;q=%22The%20text%20in%20question%20is%20one%20mistakenly%20attributed%22&amp;f=false">p. 78, footnote 15</a>.<span style="font-size:130%;">3) Did Augustine Believe in the Immaculate Conception?</span><br />
<br />
Ferrara seemed to assert that Augustine did.  Luigi Gambero, however, writes: <blockquote>There seems no doubt that Augustine considered Mary's exemption from sin to be a great grace. But what sins does he mean? Undoubtedly he excludes any personal sin from Mary.  Is it possible to hypothesize that Augustine also intended to exclude original sin? Some scholars think so and make him a forerunner of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. A full treatment of the question would call for a lengthy discussion. To us it seems safer to adopt the contrary position, which is held by many experts and appears more in accord with numerous Augustinian texts.</blockquote> - Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church, <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=dsZzsAtggnUC&amp;lpg=PA226&amp;dq=%22There%20seems%20no%20doubt%20that%20Augustine%20considered%20Mary%27s%20exemption%20from%20sin%20to%20be%20a%20great%20grace.%22&amp;pg=PA226#v=onepage&amp;q=%22There%20seems%20no%20doubt%20that%20Augustine%20considered%20Mary%27s%20exemption%20from%20sin%20to%20be%20a%20great%20grace.%22&amp;f=false">p. 226</a>.<br />
<br />
Obviously, as noted above, Luigi Gambero is a Mariologist and Marianist priest.  I don't accept everything that Gambero says, and neither should anyone.  If, however, a scholar were to have a bias to want to find the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as anciently as possible, Gambero would be one to have such a bias.  Nevertheless, even he is willing to acknowledge that the evidence favors the position that Dr. White took during the debate, namely that while Augustine may have believed that Mary lacked any actual sin, Augustine believed that Mary had original sin.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-size:130%;">4) Sanctified in the Womb Does not Equal Immaculate Conception</span><br />
<br />
Although conception takes place in the womb, a child remains in the womb from conception until birth.  As Dr. White pointed out during the debate, even among those in the middle ages who thought that Mary did not have personal sins, there were those who believed that Mary was conceived with original sin, but then purified of it.<br />
<br />
Thus, for example, Catherine of Sienna asserted:<br />
<blockquote>The eternal Word, therefore, was given to us by the hand of Mary, and of  the substance of Mary He put on nature without the blemish of original  sin, and this He did, because that conception was not of man, but made  by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This indeed was not so in Mary,  because she did not proceed from the mass of Adam by the operation of  the Holy Spirit, but of man. And because that whole mass was corrupt,  her soul could not be infused but into corrupt nature, nor could she be  purified but by the grace of the Holy Spirit, of which grace indeed, a susceptible body  is not the subject, but a rational or intellectual spirit, and therefore  Mary could not be purified of that blemish, till after her soul was  infused into her body, which in truth was so done out of reverence for  the Divine treasure, which was destined to be placed in that vessel. For  as a furnace consumes a drop of water in a moment of time, so does the  Holy Spirit the blemish of original sin: for after her conception she  was immediately made clean of that sin by the grace of the Holy Spirit,  and was endowed with great grace. Thou knowest, O Lord, that this is the  truth. </blockquote>On the other hand, a woman named Brigitta (known as St. Brigitta among the Roman Catholics) claimed to have a revelation in which Mary said to her:<br />
<blockquote>It is the truth, that I was conceived without original sin, and not in sin.<br />
</blockquote>(<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ZDROAAAAYAAJ&amp;pg=PA35#v=onepage&amp;f=false">source for these conflicting alleged revelations</a>)<br />
<br />
As we previously observed, Thomas Aquinas agreed with Catherine of Sienna, and against Brigitta (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2009/05/augustine-and-immaculate-conception.html">link to first discussion</a>)(<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/08/thomas-aquinas-and-fathers-of-church-on.html">link to second discussion</a>).  Incidentally, when you go to the link to that first discussion, you will note Aquinas is trying to rely on Augustine again, but his copy of Augustine seems to have some interpolations.  As Dr. White pointed out in the debate, this problem of having an inaccurate and distorted view of the patristic period was something that frequently beset Aquinas.<br />
<br />
<span style="font-size:130%;">5) John the Baptist - Sanctified in the womb?</span><br />
<br />
Multiple times during the debate Mr. Ferrara asserted that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb.  He insisted that the Bible taught this, and argued - in essence - that if God did that for John the Baptist, wouldn't have done that for Mary?  As a first point, as I've discussed before, it's not clear that John the Baptist is less than Mary (<a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/05/is-mary-greater-than-john-baptist.html">link to some discussion of this issue</a>).  Indeed Jesus himself said:<br />
<br />
Matthew 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.<br />
<br />
Luke 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.<br />
<br />
But even worse for Mr. Ferrara, the Bible does not say that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb.  What it does say about John the Baptist is this.  First, it is prophesied that he will be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb:<br />
<br />
Luke 1:15  For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.<br />
<br />
Second, it is explained that when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, John the Baptist jumped within her womb.<br />
<br />
Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:<br />
...<br />
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.<br />
<br />
Nevertheless, although these very unusual comments are made regarding John the Baptist, there is no statement that John the Baptist was sanctified in the womb.<br />
<br />
There is one Old Testament prophet who was described that way: the prophet Jeremiah.<br />
<br />
Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.<br />
<br />
And finally, of course, there is no good reason to think that "sanctified" in Jeremiah 1:5 means "cleansed of original sin" or anything like that.  It refers to the fact that he was set apart to be holy all along.<br />
<br />
Thus, Paul similarly declares:<br />
<br />
Galatians 1:15-17  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.<br />
<br />
Yet it would be foolishness of the worst kind to suppose that Paul was kept sinless from the time he was in his mother's womb.  Paul himself declares:<br />
<br />
1 Timothy 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.<br />
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And Mary herself recognized that she was one of those sinners by acknowledging God as her Savior:<br />
<br />
Luke 1:47  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.<br />
<br />
- TurretinFan]]></description>
 <category>Roman Catholicism</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4150</comments>
 <pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 05:31:16 -0700</pubDate>
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 <title><![CDATA[Most Common Heard Statement on Evangelical Seminary Campuses...it Seems]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4149</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>Alan Kurschner</i></p>"I don't agree with Barth, but I think we can learn a lot from him." <br />
<br />
]]></description>
 <category>Simply Silly</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4149</comments>
 <pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:22:17 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4149</guid>

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 <title><![CDATA[Live Stream Should be Up Tonight, 5:45pm EDT]]></title>
 <link>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4148</link>
<description><![CDATA[<p><i>James White</i></p><img src="http://mp3.aomin.org/images/jpeg/iPadmonitor.jpg" align="right" title="" border="2">I hope to have <a href="http://stream.aomin.org:8000/dl.m3u">the stream</a> up and running between 5:45 and 6pm tonight, EDT for the debate on the sinlessness and immaculate conception of Mary.  I need to conserve battery power, as I haven't replaced the external battery I was using to extend its life (I need to do that asap!).  The debate is taking place at a Roman Catholic location, so I am wondering what kind of audience mixture we will have.<br />
And on a geek note, did you know you can use an iPad as a second monitor?  Though I have mine plugged in here, that is only for charging the battery.  Here my iPad is a secondary monitor on my MacBook Pro.  I have the PDF from which I'm pulling citations on the iPad, and the KeyNote screen on my main unit.  Very useful while traveling!  (The app is called Air Display).]]></description>
 <category>Misc</category>
<comments>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4148</comments>
 <pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:34:25 -0700</pubDate>
<guid>http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4148</guid>

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