Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog
An Interesting Conversation in #prosapologian on a Saturday Afternoon
12/29/2007 - James White···I was working in my office this afternoon, preparing sermons for church tomorrow, when someone with the nick "Muslm" joined our channel. I have taken out some of the channel banter that was not relevant, the joins/parts, etc., so here is the conversation that followed:
[15:15] * Muslm has joined #prosapologian
[15:15] [DrOakley] Hello Muslm.
[15:16] [Muslm] DrOakley, Hi :]
[15:16] [DrOakley] ~yus Surah 4:157
[15:16] [Gutenberg^] Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (YUS)
[15:16] [DrOakley] So, Muslm...do you believe in the substitution theory relating to Surah 4:157?
[15:17] [Muslm] DrOakley, I preach Islam on DalNet and UnderNet. Debating with other faiths. someone reffered me to you :)
[15:17] [DrOakley] That's nice.
[15:17] [DrOakley] Do you believe in the substitution theory relating to Surah 4:157?
[15:17] [Muslm] DrOakley, Of course; I believe the Quran 100%
[15:17] [DrOakley] But...that's not what I asked you. :-)
[15:18] [Muslm] DrOakley, Quran is Holy and 100% pure as it was downloaded word-to-word. Quran is a Dictated word of God
[15:18] [DrOakley] There are Muslims who say they believe the Qur'an 100% who do not believe in the substitution theory.
[15:18] [DrOakley] You do know what the substitution theory is, yes?
[15:18] [DrOakley] downloaded...interesting terminology.
[15:19] [Muslm] :] I use Computer science terminologies to explain Islam
[15:19] [DrOakley] Interesting. But, you still haven't answered my first question. :-)
[15:19] [Muslm] substitution theory?
[15:19] [Muslm] DrOakley, pls explain
[15:20] [DrOakley] Uh, yes. That another person was made to look like Isaa who was crucified instead of Him.
[15:20] [Muslm] DrOakley, Of course; even the Gospel of Barnabas says so
[15:20] [DrOakley] Yes, of course it does, being written around 1570 or so....
[15:21] [DrOakley] So, do you read Arabic?
[15:21] [Muslm] DrOakley, Yes I read arabic
[15:21] [DrOakley] OK, then can you tell me---to whom was "it made to appear" in the context?
[15:22] * Algoberry is watching quietly
[15:22] * slamnback is too
[15:22] [DrOakley] shubbiha la-hum.... who is the "them" in the context?
[15:22] * Floggy props his feet and cracks a mt dew
[15:23] [Muslm] DrOakley, One of the deciples of Jesus (mpbuh) named Judas (according to GOB) who told the Jews about His hiding place for money was made to look like Him
[15:23] [DrOakley] Yes, I know the theory. But you evidently are having a hard time understanding my question. Let me try again.
[15:23] [DrOakley] Surah 4:157 says "it was made to appear to them." Who is the "them" in Surah 4:157?
[15:24] [Muslm] DrOakley, them are the Jews who were looknig to kill Jesus (mpbuh) becaue of the fear of thier kingdom
[15:25] [DrOakley] I would agree that the only "them" in the preceding context is the Jews. So...it was made to appear to the Jews that Jesus had been crucified and executed. How do you get from there to the idea that someone else was made to look like Jesus?
[15:25] [DrOakley] I mean, wouldn't it have had to have been made to appear to the Romans, and the Christians, as well?
[15:26] [Muslm] ([The Quran] An-Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse 157) And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not (i.e. Jesus son of
[15:26] [Muslm] Mary)
[15:26] [DrOakley] Did the followers of Jesus believe He had been crucified? Did Allah fool them?
[15:26] [Muslm] Mary)
[15:26] [DrOakley] Ah, the Salifi translation....
[15:26] [DrOakley] Are you Salifi?
[15:27] [Muslm] DrOakley, I mean before crucifiction (of Judas) Judas was made to look like Jesus (mpbuh)
[15:27] [DrOakley] How do you get that translation out of the single term shubbiha?
[15:27] [Muslm] DrOakley, I am Just a Muslim :) No sect
[15:27] [DrOakley] Yes, I know what you believe. I'm asking you where you get the idea that shubbiha can be translated that way?
[15:27] [DrOakley] All Muslims have some kind of orientation. That particular translation is a favorite of some Salifi that I know.
[15:27] [DrOakley] Hence my question.
[15:28] [DrOakley] Could you identify the translation you just cited, please?
[15:28] [Muslm] DrOakley, Shabahat means simmilarity
[15:29] [DrOakley] I know it does. And in the form it is found in Surah 4:157, it is verbal in form, yes?
[15:29] [DrOakley] So, "it was made to appear." That's why there is a direct object following.
[15:29] [DrOakley] Could you identify the translation you just cited, please?
[15:30] [DrOakley] Muslm?
[15:30] [Muslm] It was made to appear so to the Jews so taht they will kill Judas and humililate him rather Jesus (mpbuh)
[15:31] [Muslm] DrOakley, I am Not actually understanding the Question :] sorry for delay
[15:31] [DrOakley] Yes, I know that is what you believe. However, that is not what Surah 4:157 says.
[15:31] [DrOakley] Is Judas mentioned in Surah 4:157?
[15:31] [Muslm] DrOakley, nope
[15:31] [DrOakley] I see.
[15:31] [DrOakley] Tell me...what do the ahadith say about Surah 4:157?
[15:32] [Muslm] DrOakley, Sruah just says another man was put on the cross (instead of Jeus (mpbuh)) because that person was made to look like Him (by God mirraculusly)
[15:32] [DrOakley] I'm sorry, but the text says no such thing. :-)
[15:32] [DrOakley] That is your understanding, but that is surely not what the text says.
[15:33] [DrOakley] Let me ask this question again:
[15:33] [DrOakley] Could you identify the translation you just cited, please?
[15:33] [DrOakley] That's the third time I've asked that. :-)
[15:33] [Muslm] face / appearance of Judas was changed by God to resemble Jesus (mpbuh)
[15:33] [DrOakley] So you say. Please identify the translation of the Qur'an you cited above.
[15:34] [Muslm] This is a Translation by Dr. Mohsin Khan and I Love it
[15:34] [DrOakley] Thank you.
[15:35] [DrOakley] Muslm, let me ask you:
[15:35] [DrOakley] How long after the events of Isaa's life was Surah 4 written?
[15:36] [Muslm] DrOakley, more than 600 years
[15:36] [DrOakley] Indeed. Now, if someone came along in say, the middle of the 13th century, around 1250 or so....
[15:37] [DrOakley] And he claimed to be a prophet....
[15:37] [DrOakley] yet he could not read Arabic, and had never read the Qur'an....
[15:37] [DrOakley] and he taught that the hijra never took place.
[15:37] [DrOakley] Would you accept his statement just because he made it?
[15:38] [Muslm] DrOakley, If this person writes a book; I will perfrom a research. and a research on his caracter, only then I will accept what he says
[15:39] [DrOakley] I see! So if he turned out to be a good guy, you'd believe him over Muhammad, even though he has no connection at all to the time of Muhammad?
[15:40] [DrOakley] http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=4&translator=5&mac=&show_arabic=1 [--- this is very interesting. Khan renders 4:158 as "But Allah raised him (Iesa (Jesus)) up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever AllPowerful, AllWise."
[15:40] [Muslm] Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) didn't know anything on His own. Quran and knowledge was revieled to Him by the angel
[15:40] [DrOakley] Where in the Qur'an is raf'ah ever used of raising someone body and soul into heaven?
[15:41] [DrOakley] Yes, I know you believe that. I have no reason to believe this to be the case.
[15:41] [DrOakley] Muhammad did not have access to the Bible. Even if he could read Arabic, the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, had not yet been translated into Arabic.
[15:41] [DrOakley] Nor could he read those texts in their original languages.
[15:42] [DrOakley] Every source available to us from the first 100 years after the crucifixion attests to the reality of the death of Christ on a cross: all secular sources, the NT itself, and all Christian writers.
[15:42] [DrOakley] It is not until the gnostics arise at a later point do we find anyone saying otherwise, and then, only because they did not even believe Jesus had a body in the first place!
[15:43] [Muslm] then how could Muhammad (s.a.w.) have perfect, flwless knowledge about Boilogy, Astronomy, geology, genalogy, Theology, past prophets act. ???
[15:43] [DrOakley] So why should I reject the consistent testimony of eye witnesses and martyrs on the basis of 40 lonely Arabic words, about which no Muslim could remember a single comment by Muhammad for 200 years after Muhammad's death?
[15:43] [DrOakley] Of course, Muslm, I don't believe he had such perfect knowledge. :-)
[15:45] [Muslm] DrOakley, the eye witnesses must have seen the altered face of Judas on the cross
[15:45] [DrOakley] So Allah started Christianity by mistake?
[15:47] [Muslm] DrOakley, Allah (s.w.t.) Never started Christianity, Judaism or hinduism act. act. The only religion of the only God is Islam (and Arabic word meaning Submission to God's will)... Christianity is a corropted form of Islamic teachings of Jesus (mpbuh). Wehreas, Judaism is an altered form of the Islamic teachings of Moses (mpbuh) the old Testiment
[15:47] [Muslm] Allah (s.w.t.) sent Jesus (mpbuh) with His message Gospel towards the people of Israel
[15:48] [DrOakley] So you believe...but so far, Muslm, you have given none of us even the first reason to believe you. All you have done is repeat your profession of faith, you have failed to provide compelling answers.
[15:48] [DrOakley] Yes, so you believe as well---in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus Himself, who plainly taught that He was the Son of God, and that His gospel was for all people, not just the people of Israel.
[15:49] [Muslm] (The Bible; Matthew 15:24) But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
[15:49] [DrOakley] Don't proof text now, Muslm.
[15:49] [DrOakley] That was in the context of His earthly ministry.
[15:49] [Muslm] Said the woman: "O Lord, perhaps you are the Messiah." Jesus answered: "I am indeed sent to the House of Israel as a prophet of salvation; but after me shall come the Messiah (Muhammad (s.a.w.)), sent of God to all the worldâ€¦.
[15:49] [DrOakley] ~nas Matt 28:19-20
[15:49] [Gutenberg^] Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, (NASB)
[15:50] [Gutenberg^] Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (NASB)
[15:50] [Muslm] (The Bible “ Mark 12:29 ) "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one
[15:50] [DrOakley] You are only proving my points so far, Muslm....
[15:50] [Muslm] There seems to be a contradiction in your Bible. Jesus (mpbuh) saying the opposite of the Historians
[15:50] [DrOakley] And please, quoting the fraudulent "Gospel of Barnabas" utterly destroys your credibility. :-)
[15:51] [DrOakley] I just quoted Jesus contradicting your misinterpretation.
[15:51] [DrOakley] You seem to be the one who is confused about the text of the Bible.
[15:51] [DrOakley] Surely, anyone who can believe the Gospel of Barnabas is a historical document is easily confused about many things.
[15:51] [Muslm] Jesus says -- John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father (Lord i.e. Allah) which hath sent me [[-- This proves that Jesus was a Muslim (the One who submits to the will of Allah (s.w.t.) in Arabic is called a Muslim)
[15:52] [DrOakley] ~nas John 5:24
[15:52] [Gutenberg^] John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (NASB)
[15:52] [DrOakley] If you believe v. 30, why not v. 24?
[15:52] [DrOakley] And even more importantly:
[15:52] [DrOakley] ~nas John 5:23
[15:52] [Gutenberg^] John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (NASB)
[15:52] [DrOakley] I would suggest you not quote v. 30 when you don't believe what comes before it. :-)
[15:52] [DrOakley] Simple honesty would demand that.
[15:53] [DrOakley] Do you honor the Son *even as* you honor the Father, Muslm?
[15:53] [DrOakley] If not, why not?"
[15:53] [Muslm] DrOakley, we Muslims honor Jesus (mpbuh) more than Christians. Thats the reason we write mpbuh with His name
[15:54] [DrOakley] You reject His being the Son of God, you reject His being the great I Am, you reject His saving death on the cross, and you think typing mpbuh after His name is somehow important?
[15:54] [DrOakley] I've lost track of how many direct questions I've asked you so far, Muslm, that you have failed to even attempt to answer.
[15:54] [DrOakley] The number is growing rather large.
[15:54] [Muslm] DrOakley, we are bearded like Him. and we Muslims are circumcised like Him, we dont drink like He didnt drink. Jesus (mpbuh) worshiped God by prostrating face-down on the grownd like we do
[15:55] [DrOakley] You have no idea what Jesus looked like; Jesus turned water into wine in Cana of Galilee, and partook of wine in the passover meal; and He worshiped as a Jew, not as a Muslim.
[15:56] [DrOakley] But what is more, you reject His teachings, you reject the teachings of His disciples, all because Muhammad was ignorant of what was in the New Testament, and for no other reason.
[15:58] [DrOakley] ~nas Col 2:9
[15:58] [Gutenberg^] Col. 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (NASB)
[15:58] [DrOakley] That is what the NT teaches about Jesus, Muslm.
[15:58] [DrOakley] All the fullness of Deity---that which makes God, God---dwells in Him in bodily form.
[15:59] [DrOakley] You are familiar with Ibn Kathir, yes? Are you aware that in his tafsir on Surah 36 he mentions a very ancient Muslim understanding of the city mentioned therein, that had messengers sent to it?
[15:59] [DrOakley] And that he identifies the city as Antioch, and one of the messengers of God sent thereto as Bulus, i.e., Paul?
[16:00] [Muslm] (The Bible -- Exodus 20:3-5) â€œYou shall have no other gods before me. â€œYou shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is on the earth beneath or that is in the water below. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God,
[16:00] [DrOakley] How could the early Muslims view Paul as a messenger of God? Because they had never read his writings!!!
[16:00] [DrOakley] Amen, Muslm. All Christians believe and obey that text, thank you.
[16:01] [DrOakley] Only as Muslims, hundreds of years later, began to interact with the Christian Scriptures did they have to deal with the reality that their prophet had no understanding whatsoever of the New Testament!
[16:01] [Muslm] DrOakley, I like that Ibne-Kathir commentary on Quran....although I have Not come across this portion
[16:02] [DrOakley] Look at his tafsir on Surah 36. You'll find it interesting.
[16:02] [Muslm] according to scholars; Paul met Jesus (mpbuh) once or twice...wheras Barnabas lived very close to Him all His life
[16:03] [DrOakley] Muslm, think about it....
[16:03] [DrOakley] What was Barnabas' name originally?]
[16:03] [DrOakley] Do you know?
[16:03] [Muslm] DrOakley, Jesus (mpbuh) never said Trinity
[16:03] [DrOakley] ~nas John 8:24
[16:03] [Gutenberg^] John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins." (NASB)
[16:03] [DrOakley] Do you believe Jesus is the I Am?
[16:03] [DrOakley] ~nas John 18:5-6
[16:03] [Gutenberg^] John 18:5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am [He]." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. (NASB)
[16:03] [Gutenberg^] John 18:6 So when He said to them, "I am [He]," they drew back and fell to the ground. (NASB)
[16:04] [DrOakley] If you refuse to believe in Jesus as the I Am, you will die in your sins, Muslm.
[16:06] [Muslm] Col 4: Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister's son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him)
[16:06] [Muslm] This is Barnabas
[16:06] [DrOakley] Yes....and what does the Bible tell us about him?
[16:06] [DrOakley] That his name was wha?
[16:06] [DrOakley] wha?
[16:06] [DrOakley] Ack
[16:06] [DrOakley] what?
[16:06] [DrOakley] ~nas Acts 4:36
[16:06] [Gutenberg^] Acts 4:36 Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement), (NASB)
[16:06] [DrOakley] His name was Joseph.
[16:07] [DrOakley] He got the name Barnbas how?
[16:07] [DrOakley] From the Apostles, after the resurrection.
[16:08] [Muslm] DrOakley, It makes little sense to me, as the Christians say...God came to earth a (who is his own father) and killed himself for the stupid sins of mankind....and now those who have accepted this can continue commiting adultry, drinking and they will be forgiven...because they are paid for
[16:08] [DrOakley] The "Gospel of Barnbas," a fraudulent work recognized by scholars of all faiths, including Muslim scholars, to have been written around the end of the 16th century, and, in the most favorable case, no early than the 14th century, says Jesus referred to Barnbas as Barnabas DURING JESUS' LIFETIME.
[16:08] [DrOakley] I see you do not understand the Trinity, nor the gospel, Muslm. I am sorry to see this.
[16:09] [DrOakley] I would invite you to read the Bible for what it says, rather than just cutting and pasting verses that you have clearly never read in their own context.
[16:09] [DrOakley] Jesus is not His own Father. We believe in only one true God, whose Being is possessed fully by three divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the Son who came into His own creation in the form of a man:
[16:09] [DrOakley] ~nas John 1:14
[16:09] [Gutenberg^] John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (NASB)
[16:09] [DrOakley] Not the Father.
[16:10] [DrOakley] The Son willingly gave Himself for the sins of God's people so that they might be united to Him.
[16:10] [DrOakley] I am sorry if the normal presentation made to you by many Christians is basically that the gospel is about mankind. It isn't. The gospel is about what the Triune God has done to glorify Himself.
[16:11] [ShazzzARP] amen
[16:11] [DrOakley] God chose to glorify Himself through the Incarnation, the Cross, and the Resurrection. God---the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit---saves a particular people perfectly, never once failing to save His own.
[16:11] [DrOakley] Hence, as the Bible says:
[16:11] [Muslm] Holy Quran :::: This is what We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Verses and the Wise Reminder (i.e. the Quran). Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (This is) the truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.
[16:11] [DrOakley] ~nas Eph 1:4-7
[16:11] [Gutenberg^] Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (NASB)
[16:11] [Gutenberg^] Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (NASB)
[16:11] [Gutenberg^] Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (NASB)
[16:11] [Gutenberg^] Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (NASB)
[16:12] [DrOakley] He does all of this "to the praise of the glory of His grace." Those words were written under the direction of the Spirit of God six hundred years before Muhammad began to preach against the pagan idolatry in Mecca.
[16:12] [Muslm] Jesus (mpbuh) was the word of God "Be" and He became...a word of mouth....For Allah (s.w.t.) to create a Million Jesuses is a matter of saying a WORD "BE" without a father And without a mother
[16:12] [DrOakley] He lived his life ignorant of those words. He never read them. Hence---he was wrong.
[16:12] [DrOakley] These words were also written long before Muhammad:
[16:12] [DrOakley] ~nas John 1:1-3
[16:12] [Gutenberg^] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (NASB)
[16:12] [Gutenberg^] John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. (NASB)
[16:12] [Gutenberg^] John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (NASB)
[16:13] [DrOakley] Likewise,
[16:13] [Muslm] Allah (s.w.t.) Created Jesus (mpbuh) and Allah (s.w.t.) owns what He creates...So Jesus (mpbuh) is a Slave of Allah (s.w.t.)
[16:13] [DrOakley] ~nas Col 1:16-17
[16:13] [Gutenberg^] Col. 1:16 For by Him all things were created, [both] in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. (NASB)
[16:13] [Gutenberg^] Col. 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (NASB)
[16:13] [DrOakley] Jesus is the Creator, Muslm.
[16:13] [DrOakley] These are words of God that existed long before Muhammad.
[16:13] [DrOakley] Why should I believe Muhammad rather than the testimony of so many?
[16:16] [DrOakley] BTW, Muslm...you have not responded to even the few evidences I have offered that the Gospel of Barnabas is a fraud, written only about 400 to 500 years ago.
[16:16] [DrOakley] Are you not aware of all the problems in the book?
[16:17] [Muslm] (The Quran -- Chapter 2, Verse 87) And indeed, We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him with Gabriel. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.
[16:17] [DrOakley] Did you know that book says that there was a three-way war in Israel in the days of Pilate involving hundreds of thousands of soldiers, all fighting over whether Jesus was the Son of God?
[16:18] [DrOakley] Yes, Muslm, we have established that Muhammad was ignorant of history and the New Testament. Repeating his statements without substantiating his prophethood really does nothing to advance your argument. :-)
[16:19] [DrOakley] I note for others: there were not hundreds of thousands of armed men in all of Palestine at the time; even the Romans kept a very small force there, which is why in AD 70 Titus had to travel there with the Roman legions, and even then, you are talking 20,000-50,000 max. The Gospel of Barnabas' claims are utterly ridiculous.
[16:20] [DrOakley] The number of humorous mistakes in the book are many.
[16:20] [Muslm] DrOakley, there are more than 200 errors in the several-times revised Bible...there are None in the Quran, Why?
[16:21] [Muslm] and we never revised Quran and will never will
[16:21] [ShazzzARP] uh oh :)
[16:21] [Muslm] It is the same word to word
[16:21] [Muslm] brb
[16:21] [DrOakley] Really?
[16:21] [DrOakley] So why did Uthman have to create an official version only 23 years after Muhammad's death?
[16:21] [DrOakley] And then burn all the other Qur'anic materials?
[16:22] [DrOakley] You don't burn things like that unless....they differ from the version you have created.
[16:22] [DrOakley] Further, as Al-Bukhari records, certain ayah were found in the memories of only one individual.
[16:22] [DrOakley] How do you know things are not missing? Or, maybe Surah 4:157 was misremembered by a single of the Qurra, and this is why there is no hadith about it?
[16:23] [DrOakley] But, please, feel free to try to demonstrate some errors in our Bible. I'd be happy to help you with that.
[16:27] [DrOakley] Have you returned, Muslm?
[16:29] [Muslm] [DrOakley] So why did Uthman have to create an official version only 23 years after Muhammad's death? [---- Quran was FULLY compiled in the hearts of many Muslims within the lifetime of Muhammad (s.a.w.)
[16:30] [DrOakley] So you say....Al Bukhari disagrees. Why should I believe you?
[16:30] [Muslm] [DrOakley] And then burn all the other Qur'anic materials? [---- Uthman r.a. burned the copies of the Quran that were written in variing fonts
[16:30] [DrOakley] Where does Bukhari say that?
[16:30] [DrOakley] Where does "fonts" appear?
[16:30] [DrOakley] I have the entire set of Bukhari, in Arabic, next to me.
[16:30] [DrOakley] Give me a citation.
[16:31] [Lane] (In other words, "Gotcha.")
[16:31] [DrOakley] “Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt.” (Al-Bukhari, 6.510)
[16:32] [DrOakley] Where does it say because they were written in a different script or font?
[16:32] [DrOakley] You are misrepresenting your own sources now, Muslm.
[16:32] [DrOakley] Let me prove it:
[16:32] [Muslm] DrOakley, He discarded the other copies of the Quran for unification of manuscript
[16:33] [DrOakley] Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before."
[16:33] [DrOakley] Yes, unification of the text: that's the point. If the preceding materials did not differ in READING there would be no reason to BURN them.
[16:34] [Muslm] DrOakley, Differences in the recitation....that is what I meant
[16:34] [DrOakley] I'm sorry, Muslm, but I am disappointed in you. I have read this section of Al-Bukhari very carefully. Your misrepresentation of it would work with 99.99% of all Christians---but not with me.
[16:34] [DrOakley] Let me point something out to you, Muslm:
[16:34] [Muslm] DrOakley, they were Not differnet Qurans; just different fonts and resitations....like in american Englsih we write "Color" and "Colour" in Brithish English
[16:35] [DrOakley] Compare and contrast the means used to transmit the New Testament: rather than a single, militarized organization controlling and determining a final “orthodox” form, and destroying all other forms of the text, the NT's history is completely different. The early centuries were marked by persecution. The Romans attempted to destroy the Scriptures.
[16:35] [DrOakley] There was no single organization to control the copying of the NT Scriptures. Instead, believers, longing to possess and spread the Word, made copies for themselves, at the risk of their lives. Very few were professional scribes, so common scribal errors are found in every manuscript. The text went far and wide as quickly as the Gospel itself.
[16:36] [DrOakley] It was this immediate distribution that makes the NT text more reliable than the Qur'an. Why? Because there was never a time when a “Christian Uthman” could have arisen, gathered up all the current copies, and made any wholesale changes. All theories of massive corruption and editing fall upon this single consideration.
[16:36] [Muslm] besides; I can prove wrong the myth of Crucifiction VERY easily from the Bible !!! :]
[16:36] [DrOakley] Well, since we aren't going to get any more meaningful interaction on that topic, please, feel free:
[16:36] [Carla] wow
[16:36] * Lane can't wait to see this one.
[16:37] * annLrx is getting popcorn
[16:37] [Floggy] oy vey
[16:38] * DrOakley wonders what new stuff Muslm will present that Shabir Ally did not. :-)
[16:38] [Muslm] DrOakley, I would like you to explain this....
[16:39] [Muslm] Bible :: Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
[16:39] [DrOakley] ~nas Psa 22:1
[16:39] [Gutenberg^] Psalm 22:1 For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. (NASB)
[16:39] [Muslm] DrOakley, Does this verse proves my point-of-view or yours ?
[16:39] [DrOakley] Mine.
[16:40] [DrOakley] Jesus quotes the Psalter, a text that is about the Messiah, His suffering, and His eventual vindication and victory.
[16:41] [Muslm] DrOakley, your Lord is crying to God
[16:41] [DrOakley] Yes, so?
[16:41] [DrOakley] You still do not understand what we believe, do you?"
[16:41] [Muslm] DrOakley, this proves that the One on the Cross did NOT know that he will be crucified and was shouting
[16:41] [DrOakley] Why can I understand your beliefs, but you cannot understand mine?
[16:41] [DrOakley] Hardly!
[16:41] [DrOakley] Did you not see what I said above?
[16:42] [DrOakley] The Son is quoting from the Psalter, Psalm 22.
[16:42] [Muslm] DrOakley, The one crying on the cross shouting was Judas
[16:42] [DrOakley] It is a Messianic Psalm.
[16:42] [DrOakley] There is not a SCINTILLA of evidence that this was Judas.
[16:42] [DrOakley] None.
[16:42] [DrOakley] Zero.
[16:42] [Muslm] DrOakley, The one crying on the cross shouting was Judas; as he was humiliated; kicked, tortured, and then painfully was nailed to the cross for humilliating death
[16:43] [Muslm] Bible :: Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
[16:43] [DrOakley] So you say. You haven't the first bit of historical basis for saying this.
[16:43] [crewbear] ~nas Matt 27:5
[16:43] [Gutenberg^] Matthew 27:5 And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself. (NASB)
[16:43] [Muslm] Eloi is a Hebrew pronounciation of Allah (s.w.t.) in Arabic
[16:43] [annLrx] must have been Jesus then, crew ;)
[16:43] [DrOakley] Eloi is the Aramaic, Muslm.
[16:43] [crewbear] :)
[16:43] [DrOakley] Not Arabic.
[16:44] [Muslm] Judas was Not prepared for this humillilation; that is the reason he cried on the cross
[16:45] [DrOakley] Claiming that is Judas speaking is as utterly ridiculous as my saying An-Nissa was written by Jafar ibn Abi Talib.
[16:45] [Muslm] Judas thought that he will enjoy the 30 pieces of Gold that he received from the Jews to betray Jesus (mpbuh)
[16:45] [DrOakley] Again, Muslm: give me any meaningful evidence of this from the first 100 years after Jesus' death.
[16:45] [DrOakley] Just one thing.
[16:45] [DrOakley] Please?
[16:46] [DrOakley] Or, give me something from the Qur'an....you can't, since Surah 4:157 doesn't say a word about Judas....how about the Hadith? Oh, sorry, not even that helps you.
[16:46] [Muslm] This verse of the Bible goes against the story Church tells that Jesus (mpbuh) willingly died
[16:46] [DrOakley] That puts you 800+ years after Christ....
[16:46] [DrOakley] You can keep claiming that, but everyone here sees you have ignored the perfectly biblical and logical response that has been offered to you.
[16:46] [crewbear] later mutato
[16:47] [DrOakley] Ignoring answers and repeating yourself is the sign of someone who cannot substantiate his argument, Muslm.
[16:47] [Muslm] DrOakley, I am Not satisefied by any of your answers
[16:48] [DrOakley] Well, I assure you, I have not been satisfied by any of yours, even when you have tried to answer; and you have allowed literally two dozen questions and refutations go by in silence.
[16:48] [DrOakley] So, I will allow those reading this to judge. :-)
[16:48] [DrOakley] But you have not even tried to address the citation of Psalm 22....
[16:48] [DrOakley] So, one of us has provided lots of citations, evidence, research, etc., and one has not.
[16:48] [DrOakley] I think it is very clear which side has the most consistent and sound arguments today.
[16:50] [Muslm] DrOakley, for me esiest is to debate with Christian :) and most difficult is with an Atheist
[16:50] [DrOakley] Muslm, I testify to you that Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things; He is the eternal Son of God, who became flesh as Jesus of Nazareth. He made you, He sustains you, and someday you will stand before Him, and you will remember His words:
[16:50] [DrOakley] ~nas John 8:24
[16:50] [Gutenberg^] John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins." (NASB)
[16:51] [DrOakley] You have failed, today, Muslm, to substantiate any of your denials of the faith that had been preached for hundreds of years before your prophet ever stood before the Kaaba in Mecca and proclaimed his message.
[16:51] [annLrx] Muslm: this time you lost
[16:51] [Muslm] DrOakley, Jesus (mpbuh) is Allah's WORD of mouth "BE"
[16:51] [Muslm] annLrx, you must be a Christian
[16:51] [DrOakley] But I believe we have surely spent enough time today demonstrating your errors. But feel free to stop by again at some other time.
[16:52] [annLrx] Indeed I must - I can nothing else
[16:53] [Muslm] DrOakley, sure, thats my job. we will keep debating for some time. there are a lot other verses of Bible that I want clerification for
[16:54] [DrOakley] I will pray the Lord will open your eyes so that you may see the Lord of Glory, Muslm.
[16:54] [slamnback] Muslim: Atheists have no evidence for their beliefs, Christians and Muslims do. So you should be willing to look at evidence that you haven't learned about before. Otherwise, you're going to have a bad idea of what Christianity is.
[16:55] [Muslm] DrOakley, we Pray God 5 times a day prostraing on the Grownd asking for guidence
[16:55] [DrOakley] I know you do.
[16:55] [Muslm] Aamen
[16:56] [DrOakley] But since you deny the Lord of Glory, I will pray He will open your eyes to see Him. :-)
[16:56] [Muslm] Amen
[16:56] [annLrx] Christians are urged to pray without ceasing....
[16:58] [Muslm] DrOakley, thanks; cya later :]
[16:58] [DrOakley] Bye!
[16:58] [Muslm] bye all
[16:58] [johnMaFk] bye
[16:58] * Muslm has left #prosapologian